Alhaji Adamu Ciroma was former Governor of Central Bank of Nigeria (CBN), top notch of the defunct National Party of Nigeria (NPN) and a former Minister of Finance. His experience cuts across the First Republic till date. In this interview with ABIMBOLA AKINLOYE and TAIWO ADISA, he dwells on the state of the Nigerian economy and the politics of the Fourth Republic. He insists that total removal of subsidy from petroleum products will benefit ordinary Nigerians adding that he resigned his membership of the Peoples Democratic Party(PDP) Board of Trustees and National Caucus because the party’s leaders refused to listen to words of wisdom. He also speaks on his relationship with Nigeria’s founding fathers, Chief Obafemi Awolowo, Sardauna of Sokoto, Sir Ahmadu Bello; former Prime Minister Tafawa Balewa, Dr. Nnamdi Azikiwe, among others. Excerpts:
Looking at the state of the national economy now, would you say we are progressing?
The economy is there. An economy can improve or it can worsen. This is normal; it depends on what the people in authority do. They let us know what the problems are and how they are dealing with them. So, it is not a static matter.
Recently, the IMF and the World Bank adjudged the Nigerian economy as growing. You as a former CBN Governor and Finance Minister, do you agree with that, because the view of the average Nigerian is that the economy is not improving?
There are technical matters involved in the discussion of the economy. Some can tell you that the economy is growing because the revenues and other things are growing. Some will tell you that as long as the status of the ordinary people is not improving, the question of growing economy does not mean anything. Ordinarily, in most countries, people will judge what is happening—whether it is being successfully managed or not. If you listen to Nigerians, even big people are crying that the people have become poorer. So, if you are involved in politics, you are likely to use what is happening to the ordinary citizens as your yardstick. In the Nigerian economy today, the ordinary people are crying as to their condition. They feel poorer; they are poorer. So, you can make your choice—whether you align with the people who say it is improving or whether you feel it with the people of this country that we are poorer.
Which one will you take as an expert?
I’m not an expert.
As a former CBN Governor and Finance Minister…
I have already stated that the ordinary people in this country feel they are poorer. The other statistics show that people in this country are poorer.
Also, the IMF canvassed the position that the Federal Government should remove subsidy on petroleum products totally. When you look at what happened last year January, there was a protest against the partial removal of petrol subsidy. Is the IMF not advising the government in the wrong direction?
Well, the IMF people, based on their world experience, have said that the subsidy should be removed. Throughout the discussion of the subsidy in this country, my own personal position is that it should be totally removed. It is not lack of sympathy for the ordinary people; it is because the amount of wastage involved in the subsidy has already been revealed by the amount of stealing that has taken place in the subsidy issue. The president partially removed the subsidy. To me, he only did a partial job. But the argument for removing subsidy totally is because the subsidy system is not transparent. The various points at which things became clouded in the NNPC, in the oil industry and in the importation and distribution of petroleum resources are so many that you are not doing the people of this country a favour by creating a situation of subsidy.
The people think that subsidy is something good, that it is in their own interest. But it is not. The truth is that subsidy is against the interest of all of us, whether you are big or small. I was surprised when it was partially removed and then there was so much pressure on the president. I think he has stopped the process of removing subsidy. But in fact, it ought to be removed altogether at once because it is not in the interest of anybody in this country, except people who want to steal the subsidy money.
If we get you right, the subsidy is being abused by some individuals. Why would the government not stop that stealing?
Well, the problem of any subsidy whether it is fertiliser or whether it is petroleum, is that there is government money being injected into some parts of the economy and the people who operate the system are the ones who benefit from the system. They always try to capture the subsidy and put it in their pockets. But let me go back a bit and tell you the history. First, I think about 2006 or thereabouts, that’s when the subsidy thing started.
The NNPC could not refine all the crude needed for local consumption. So, General Olusegun Obasanjo agreed that they should import what they could not refine, and so a certain amount of crude oil was given to NNPC to export and sell, and then import refined products with that money. First, the amount of crude given to the NNPC to export was given to it at a price less than the international price of crude. So, already, subsidy is involved.
Then, the refined products imported were imported. When they arrived, the products ought to be sold at the international normal price. But there is the money realised from the imported refined products. Does that money go back to the government, because that is what should happen? It doesn’t happen that way. So, it enables the NNPC to use some money to do things which may be good, but likely things that are bad. And so, this lack of transparency enables the operators of the NNPC and the head of government to do whatever they want with the subsidy. Therefore, Nigerians ought to be crying for the removal of the subsidy instead of asking for its maintenance. Again, the fact that NNPC is allowed to export crude oil in order to import the refined products means that it has become the interest of the NNPC to ensure that the refineries are not working. So, there are so many bad things involved in the subsidy issue and its removal is totally in the interest of the country. But people don’t know; they criticise the president for removing the subsidy while they ought to even praise him for removing it. They don’t know that the subsidy money has been the source of a lot of wastage; that a lot of individuals are benefitting from taking the subsidy money without importing the petroleum products.
So, I have always been against subsidy because it is so opaque. It is so non-transparent, it is so wasteful. But the people don’t understand and you explain to them but they refuse to understand, your duty is to keep mum.
But it was actually the political opposition that took the matter up during the protests of January 2012. Would you say that the matter was politicised or simply due to ignorance?
It is due to ignorance.
There is always this controversy over the sharing of the excess crude oil fund. The Federal Government is always saying that the money should be saved for the rainy day, whereas governors are always saying that the money should be shared. How best can this controversy be addressed?
This is a matter of government policy. You cannot say this is better or that is better. In government policy, they look at issues and take a decision. But the real issue, whether it is excess crude or normal income, is this: what does government do with the money? Money can come in, in the cleanest of ways and can be spent in the most wasteful ways. The really important issue is, how are the authorities—Federal Government, National Assembly, state Houses of Assembly—how do they authorise the spending of this money? This economy is not being properly supervised. The amount of abandoned projects in this country is beyond imagination and this is all because the government and the people in authority are not ensuring that the money is being properly spent. How does the executive actually spend this money? The authorities need to ensure that the money is being properly spent. They just start a project now and spend money on it, and then somebody comes and starts another project and abandons it. But you know that a lot of money finds its way into the pockets of many people.
How was the money handled and managed during your time as Finance Minister?
I’m not here to justify what I did as minister. We are talking about this country now.
How would you assess the government?
Government, whether elected or imposed by soldiers, is never static. I have already answered your question. At least now we are operating a democratic system. You have to judge it on the basis of its performance. In fact, I am the wrong person to ask because I took part in the first four years and I decided to retire. So, I am part of the people that ought to be judged.
There is a problem that people observe in the constitution in terms of the management of our resources. People say that instead of having the system which you operated in the First Republic when you had the regions taking money to the centre, this time around we have a federalism where people come to the centre to share money, and that this kind of system is not encouraging development. Having looked at what you have painted now, how will you advise us to go from here?
Anyway, I was in government that collected revenue on behalf of the federation and allocated resources to the states based on constitutional provisions. If you operate a system, people will judge you on the basis of that system. Even the First Republic, the Federal Government still collected revenues from the federation and distributed them to the regions.
We are talking about a situation now, where some states are seen as being non-productive because of over-dependence on federal allocation
No. You see, you leave the problem and raise some other issues. To me, any system will have problems, but it will be less depending on how the operators operate. What we all know now is that we have the federal, state and local governments; it is how the people operate the system that matters. I saw the past governments. Prime Minister Abubakar Tafawa Balewa, Dr. Nnamdi Azikiwe, Chief Obafemi Awolowo were leaders who ran governments and survived without leaning on the central government. The way they operated government was different; it was based on their own qualities as individuals. In honesty, they did what they did. They were leaders who had already achieved many things in their lives; they were not people looking for money. Then, in 1979, Alhaji Shehu Shagari came. In 1979, after the elections, I was the secretary and Shagari asked me to write a letter, which I did and he approved. He was inviting the Unity Party of Nigeria (UPN), Nigeria Peoples Party (NPP), GNPP and Aminu Kano’s Peoples Redemeption Party (PRP). I wrote the letter and sent it to them, inviting them to participate in the government. The secretary of the UPN at that time was my friend and my classmate at the University of Ibadan, Banji Akitoye. And I gave the letter to him. He told me later and said that the UPN was not going to participate in that government unless we agree to abandon our programme and implement their programme. I told him: “Akitoye, you are joking. We have not even come to discuss and you give us conditions.’’ But it shows you that the UPN at least had a position.
They were not looking for positions in government to run. I sent the letter to Aminu Kano and he told me: “We are regarded as the main opposition to NPN in the North. If we join this government, we will get lost.’’
Waziri Ibarahim who was the leader of the GNPP did not even care to show anybody else in the party the letter. He kept it to himself. It was after UPN and PRP started talking about the issue that the secretary of the GNPP learnt of the letter and talked to me. I told him: “I sent you a letter.’’ He went and quarreled with Waziri Ibrahim. The NPP said okay, they were ready to discuss. So they sent the Secretary, Paul Unongo, to see me and we discussed. Everybody stated their position but, in the end, only one party was able to participate in the government. So, people were not looking for government to run, let alone steal. Now, people are looking for government to get involved in for reasons that everybody knows. The main issue is that the moral position of politicians has changed, and things will improve when they change for the better.
There is an argument as to which section of the country should produce the president in 2015. While the North is saying that it is its time to produce the president, the South-South people are saying that President Jonathan should do his second term. What is your reaction to this?
I have nothing to say. All that I had to say, I said in 2011. I said that PDP should abide by the rules that we know. But they refused and did what they did. That made me to lose interest in associating with people who don’t keep their words.
Are you saying that you are not a member of PDP now?
I formed the PDP. I have not said I have resigned. But I have told you that I lost interest since 2011.
Going by your activities in 2011, some other people argued then that it was a North versus South thing, that the South-South where Jonathan came from had always been an ally of the North, and so why was it difficult for the North to support him?
There is nothing difficult about it. What I am telling you is the moral standing of people and parties.
You served as Finance Minister under former President Olusegun Obasanjo. What was your experience with him?
I have been his friend since 1961 when he joined the Army about that time and I joined the Northern Civil Service. And we are more or less age mates. We related with each other on a personal basis even though he was president. I talked to him freely and honestly about everything to do with government. I can say it on his behalf that whatever we talk about, he always agreed, and even if he didn’t agree, he would tell me. I can tell you that President Obasanjo was lucky in that government of his.
General Theophilus Danjuma was the Minister of Defence and I was the finance minister, and each one of us could tell the president whatever we thought was right. We had no fear; we formed the party and we formed the government. And the president was only one among equals. So, whatever President Obasanjo discussed with me, he knew that I talked to him on the basis of honesty and fairness, so we got on well. I decided, in 2002 I think, that I would not want to go beyond 2003. And I told him and we argued. In the end, he agreed. The only thing he wanted me to do was to stay there and conduct the elections.
You joined the civil service at the initial point. What was it that drew you into politics?
Life runs probably according to routes that you never itemised. Of course, when I was a student in the university, I was interested in student’s politics. But the important thing was to get through the university, which I did. I joined the civil service. I did not intent to enter politics but when the Northern government set up the newspaper and they were looking for the right person to head it, they looked around; nobody applied. They found somebody who could do the job; they found me. I was doing the job, but I was also criticising the governments, so they annoyed me and I resigned. I never thought I would be resigning from the civil service but because of this position which I occupied, I resigned and I decided to go into the private sector.
I hadn’t been in the private sector for long when there was a coup ousting General Yakubu Gowon from power. They invited me to become the Governor of the Central Bank. I never thought that I would become the Governor of the CBN. In those days, by our training in school, if you were asked to do some job which you could do, you could never say no, so I accepted. I hadn’t been there for long when the Federal Government decided to set up a Constituent Assembly made up of elected people. In my area, they elected me. Nobody consulted me, because you can’t be Governor of the CBN and be doing something else. And since people elected me, I had to resign as CBN governor. And from the Constituent Assembly, matters of politics and the constitution started. That was how I got involved. So, I would say that the process of life, the wind of life blew me from the civil service to one institution in government newspaper, the CBN, the Constituent Assembly and then politics.
You read history in the university. How did you cope as CBN Governor and Finance Minister. How did you cope with the figures…
Yes, I did.
When you were appointed CBN governor and then the finance minister, how did you transform quickly into the industry? How were you able to cope?
I think I can, for once at least, afford to be arrogant. Our education was such that we could do anything.
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